So, some people have “made fun” of me for never taking the metro, or otherwise acted like it’s the equivalent of Macs for transportation (i.e. magically solves all problems).
Me? I used to pay $15 a day to park in L’Enfant plaza, rather than metro. Fuck the metro! And fuck buses! They introduce a whole different slew of problems that I’d rather not have.
Fuck the bus! The bus fucks you!
When I see people at bus stops, I just think to myself about how I pity people poor enough to have to stand outside in the elements and wait for somebody else to have to drive them. You ever see an attractive girl at a bus stop? I did, once, every day. She stuck out like a sore thumb! Most bus people are usually kind of ugly and poor looking. Not to be a snob, buuuuuuut….. I’m a snob. I just pity them for not having their own car.
Huh huh huh huh... Poor people.
So I hate public transit for many reasons. Quite simply, even if it meant 30 extra minutes commuting, and $15 extra spent per day, I‘D STILL DRIVE.
What about everyone else?
I decided to search my google reader for friends comments on “metro” and “bus”. Close to everything is negative. Every comment here is a comment made by a friend of mine on Facebook or Twitter. Friends’ comments are in quotes. My own comments are with an asterisk before them. I should mention that during all of this, I only found about a dozen positive comments about the metro and buses. So in fact, most of this blog post is not written by me, but by everyone who knows me. Crowdsourcing!
Issues include:
.
Terrorism:
“…does not like bomb scares that shut down two metro lines, but was happy to see my neighbor after we were booted off the train and out of the station!”
* Terrorist attacks never seem to target people driving on the highway, only those in mass transit. Travel like a sheep, get culled like one. More people may die in car accidents, but those can be avoided by a good driver. A bomb going off — you can’t really avoid that.
* Even the smallest things will fuck up your day if you take the metro. A suspicious package on I-95 would have no affect on me.
If only you'd driven, you wouldn't be all explody now, would you?
.
Lack of freedom, in general:
Don’t you dare take pictures! (Tons of stories like this one, such as this, this, this, and this.)
Lack of freedom includes censorship: DC Metro censorship in the name of God in violation of the 1st amendment. DC metro censorship of anti-prohibition political speech in violation of the 1st amendment.
…Or having your bags randomly searched in violation of the 4th amendment.
…Or being constantly surveilled.
Not allowed!
* Simply put, by paying into a system that abridges your constitutional rights, you become complicit in your own self-funded bondage.
* And of course you can’t smoke, eat, or drink. Some of us like to sip our orange juice while driving, or nom on our breakfast while in the car.
.
The argument that it saves money, but then a lot of people still have cars, and still pay car insurance, so they don’t really save that much. Those that actually 86’ed their cars simply can’t get to places that aren’t metro accessible, and have sacrificed their freedom for a few dollars…
* The people who gave up their cars talk about saved money, but can’t come to parties, camping, X-Day, anywhere rural, and are basically locked into their little city, with no way to get out. Their sphere of travel is written in stone, and they shall never venture beyond the borders of metro, unless they want to pay exorbitant cab rates. (Outside of traveling to / being in other cities, I have taken a cab once in my life.)
* In 22 combined years of the 2 of us living in our house (11 years * 2 people), which includes about 17 years of employment — only 4 of those years have been at places metro accessible. If we can’t choose from as large of a pool of jobs to commute to, then our opportunity is less, and we end up making less money. Freedom of choice gets you higher salaries. This also applies to friends — I’m glad people in Leesburg, Woodbridge, Reston, and Manasses aren’t automatically disincluded from the list of friends I can easily visit.
* If they want a metro home on a weeknight, they have to leave before midnight. You want me to go through my list of all concerts I’ve ever been to, and list all the shows I wouldn’t have been able to make it to without a car? Sure I could taxi… From Baltimore?! Sounds expensive.
* Good luck fleeing the city in the event of an actual emergency.
More crowded than a dusty Manhattan street on 9/11
.
Getting hit with advertising, which you don’t get in your own car….:
“There are now ads in the Metro trains and stations that advertise the use of COMMON SENSE. People wonder why I have such a wonderful opinion of humanity.”
Yes, I am. In fact, I've gotten enough advertising for a lifetime. Fuck off.
* Of course, these ads won’t say anything bad about God, or marijuana legalization (see censorship, above), until people go to court.
.
General inconvenience / annoyance with other people:
* CROWDS! (See above.)
Annoying people everywhere.
“remembering why she hates working in DC- traffic, metro with no one talking, the manic escalator habits of commuters (stand on right, walk on left, or FEEL MY WRATH)…..”
* I remember when my car broke down, and I took Van Dorn metro. The parking lot was always completely full by the time I went to work, so Carolyn had to drop me off. It was only 40 minutes — same as driving — when 2 of us were inconvenienced. If I wanted to drive myself, I had to go to Springfield Metro. That upped the total time to 90 minutes. Driving took me 40-45 minutes. A link for those who don’t believe Metro parking lots get full.
* I got to have a little girl kick the back of my seat the entire friggin’ ride.
“Got Godwin’d on my way to the Metro by LaRouche supporters. LOL”
“mad my umbrella got stolen on the metro!”
“I love the metro at 1213 at night. I get to hear two douche bags in suits talk about bullshit. Stay classy DC.”
“14th St NW bus route. Bus driver vs *crazy* lady in wheel chair. Lady refused to lock chair. Kudos to driver for not being unsafe!”
.
Standing around other people coughing, and their disgusting germs / bodily functions / physical annoyingness..
“is sure someone must be listening to the announcements on the Metro to wash your hands and cover your mouth when you cough, but it certainly isn’t anyone on THIS train.”
“super creepy woman wearing a surgical face mask on the metro.. not sure if its to protect her… or us… eek”
“metro ride this morning was made a little more interesting than normal when a blind man sold out his guide dog, falsely accusing him of authoring a thunderous blast of flatulence that nearly knocked the train off its rails. This haiku is dedicated to that poor pooch… dogs endure much scorn / taking blame for scores of farts / man’s best friend, indeed.”
“watched a guy chunder all over the metro on the way home at 3am this morning. And then watched him fall off his chair into his pile of chunder. Brilliant.”
Get your disgusting bodily functions away from me!!
* My friend Chris H pissed on a metro after 4th of July. No bathrooms anywhere. Carolyn pissed in the parking lot. I pissed under a stairwell. At least we managed to hold it a bit longer, but there was simply no other way possible. DC is a mad house on 4th of July. Glad I go to X-Day now…
.
Getting groped / violated / robbed…. Of course, getting groped is so common that in Japan they are starting to have women only trains:
“I think I was just violated on the metro….” [from a pretty girl that I know]
“I hate when somebody sits next to you on metro and they WON’T MOVE once the train is less crowded. It’s usually some dudeface that does ”
* Kinda hard to get robbed while driving down I-95.
Glen, could you please find somewhere else to stand?
Giggity!
.
Lack of physical comfort:
* I can set my car’s air conditioning/heat to whatever temperature I want. Since my body lacks thermal regulation, I adjust this frequently throughout my ride. I also remote start my car, so that it is pre-warmed before I get into it. When done right, I never sweat or shiver, year-round.
“just sat in the only wet bench spot on the entire Metro platform. Its gonna be a great day…”
“this bus driver forces an old crippled lady to get off 100 ft. before her stop, despite her protests of not being able to walk that far, because he’s legally allowed to based on “protocol.” I led the charge in getting the entire bus to tell him how fucked up his “protocol” is.”
Not to mention snow making things really uncomfortable:
“Really don’t want to find out what it’s like to walk home from metro tonight. Hoping cabs show up soon.”
Even good comments are bittersweet:
“metro was mostly timely… almost to work … only saving grace was the rare seat on the orange train!”
You’re happy to get a seat? Really? I get to sit down all the way when I drive. The metro has usually been standing room only in my experience. Maybe if you get on at the end of the line you’ll get a seat, but good luck when you have to transfer trains. Standing isn’t execise; it’s pain. Especially if you have plantar fasciitis. People talk about the stuff they get done on the metro, but if I’m standing on a moving vehicle, the only thing I’m going to do is hold the rail the whole time.
This spiked medieval torture chair is more comfortable than standing on the metro.
My name is Sol Rosenberg, and my foot hurts, goddamnit!
.
Speaking of falling, falling sucks:
“is sore from fall off the metro bus yesterday afternoon. I really don’t want to go to work, but I really should.”
But even walking sucks if you’re crippled:
“this bus driver forces an old crippled lady to get off 100 ft. before her stop, despite her protests of not being able to walk that far, because he’s legally allowed to based on “protocol.” I led the charge in getting the entire bus to tell him how fucked up his “protocol” is.”
“is not looking forward to taking the metro home this evening.”
And good luck taking an elevator… They really don’t want you to do that: “Crystal city metro stop has a sign saying elevator is across Clark st.Arrow pnts AWAY frm Clark.Elvtr obscured by shrubs,no more signs.FAIL.”
* GOOD LUCK taking any luggage and such. I know when I had a briefcase, and it was standing room only, that meant 1 hand on a rail above my head [because all the vertical rails were taken], and 1 hand holding my briefcase the whole time. By the end, my foot AND arm hurt. YAY METRO [sarcasm].
Take this on the metro, and you'll have a squashed dead cat! Unless you're planning on baking a cat-asserole, better take private transport.
.
Part of comfort is getting to blast your own music… loudly… with your windows open in the summer:
* Oh, sure, you can listen to music on the metro, but it’s much louder in my car with my subwoofers.
Even with 1 speaker blown, this kicks metro's shitty speakers' asses. Also, better music comes out of these. Miley Cyris? Really? Fucking slut.
“Yea, I think Miley needs to rethink her opening act – Metro Station singing a song with I touch myself in the lyrics is a little weird.” [Yeah, I’d pay money NOT to hear Miley Cyris, I’m glad I have never heard her sing in my life.]
.
Lack of control / maintaining your own schedule [because you are at someone else’s mercy, unless you drive and set your own schedule]:
“Just sprinted to catch a bus. Got there just after he closed the door. I knocked, he looked at me and drove off. Are you fucking serious?”
“Tried “slugging” to work for the first time today. WHY haven’t I ever done this before? Dear Metro, feel free to keep your delays, continual fare hikes, horrible service, and door malfunctions all to yourself cuz I’ve been converted.”
“has had a really stressful morning so far (computer infected with malware and temporarily unusable, metro ran late)”
“Please tell me why they have an attendant at the exit of the metro park and ride if they can’t accept any form of payment aside from a smart trip card and everyone has to back up when one person has a low balance or no card!!!”
“is now dreading driving home in the rain. blah. however, really glad not to be on the metro red line today… apparently someone was hit earlier this afternoon. =-/”
“off to see Soft Cell with the man. Thank God he can drive in DC so we dont have to mess with the metro, stupid orange line.”
“I keep hearing about how disruptive this Nuclear Summit is to the metro,”
“Folks, when the TV people are screaming ZOMG TEH TRAFFIC!! you might want to check Google before you just bum-rush the nearest Metro..” (What, metro doesn’t magically save everyone like Macs do?)
“was late to work because her bus never showed up…but is consoling herself with blueberries.” [first comment in response was:] “My bus didn’t show up either!!”
“http://www.flickr.com/photos/brhefele/3506739039/ I’m just going to repeat that link whenever Metro has a problem. 10k updates soon! ;)”
Fail Rail, by brhefele... DC WMATA Really could have used these that day the train hit that other train and killed a bunch of people....
“Y’know what? FUCK Metro. They’re either liars or incompetent, and I don’t know which is worse. #dcmetrofail”
“Metro is a mess, it just continues to get worse. Today I spent nearly 90 minutes to get from Alexandria to DC. Becoming unreliable.”
* Accidents may equal delays when driving, but you smart cell phone / GPS types should be able to plan an alternate route. If you’re on the metro, there’s usually only one route. Good luck with that when anything goes wrong.
“was really surprised when the 23A Metro bus stopped at the Metro depot. Apparently it went out of service without the driver noticing I was aboard.”
“wants to know why her metro train was “express service”, meaning, not stopping at dunn loring? All attempts at being early are “derailed.””
“hearts metro. Their site says, “Some buses are avoiding certain routes altogether” but they don’t provide any details of which streets aren’t being traveled on.”
“I find it quite humorous when people run to catch the metro. They always either just miss it or they end up waiting inside the train for …”
Lots of annoying people on public transport.
“It was 3! The signs at metro LIE.”
“Ah, Metro, thanks for bending me over and showing me how to take it like a man. ”
“watched the lightning for awhile and felt sorry for the poor people we could see running through the Dunn-Loring metro parking lot in the middle of the storm … Now I learned that the orange line is terminating service at EFC for the time being d/t a power outtage”
“Since I’ve worked some extra hours this week (HELLO, METRO DELAYS!)”
“Metro Metro, how I hate thee!!!!!”
“the metro unexpectedly closed at midnight instead of 2am like I thought. Both [cab rides] were $15-20 including tip, which strikes me as a pretty nice hourly rate.” [But way more than if you drove.]
CONCLUSION
So my conclusion is…. Fuck the metro. And I no longer need to explain why I don’t like it to people. In the future, I will simply refer to this blogpost!
... the metro. It fucks you. In the ass.
I assume once I post this, the metro lovers will leave a bunch of positive comments about it. But once you’ve read this, the study is no longer a blind study, so your data could not really be fairly counted. Fact of the matter is, expressed sentiment about public transport is overwhelmingly negative.
Mood: lazy
Music: Ozzy Osbourne – I Don’t Want To Stop
April 13, 2010 at 4:40 PM
There have been two instances where my car was being worked on, and I didn’t have access to a spare one. Both times, I considered taking the metro bus/rail to work. Both times, I realized that was dumb and came up with other arrangements.
Using the metro’s online trip planner thing, I found out I would have to had to leave my house at 6am in order to arrive at my work by 8:30am. I wouldn’t have gotten back to my house until 7:30pm leaving my work at 5pm. That was too much overhead for me. That was *if* everything went smoothly and I didn’t miss any buses and everything was on-time.
Plus, it seemed to have an extra fee for some special bus. I forget the specifics since it was a few months ago when I was looking at it, but I manipulated that trip planner to try to avoid that bus so that the cost wouldn’t be so high. In the end, I was like “F that, this is too much trouble”.
April 13, 2010 at 4:45 PM
^ BTW, she has a 10-15 minute commute normally.
April 15, 2010 at 5:28 PM
John The Canadien:
“cat-ASSerole, fuggin brilliant!”
“I’m so hungry, I could eat a grown Oranjello’s ass!”
April 15, 2010 at 5:29 PM
Dana Mc: “The only thing I don’t love about the metro is the fact that you can’t take a bike on it during rush “hour”. Bike+metro = win.
OH.. and the fact that they dont have “commuter lanes” for the fare machines during game day.. waiting for 40 minutes in a line of 500 people trying use Metro for the first time.. != win.”
April 15, 2010 at 5:30 PM
Dos Frijoles:
Metro’s fine beyond it’s mismanagement and lack of funds.
April 15, 2010 at 6:24 PM
Dana McI: “where did you find that photo of Bound in 1979 tho??”
April 15, 2010 at 6:24 PM
Ben W: “I think public transportation shines only if you live in the city. I always drive if I’m going to see a show or eat in DC. Even if it means I don’t drink for the evening.
Also, the “rape train” in Japan only happens on a certain type of train in Tokyo. There they have women only cars for rush hour. Much like “wacky Japanese things” it is a very small part of living there. People can get groped in night clubs our great nation just as easily.”
April 15, 2010 at 6:24 PM
According to surveys, “almost 64 percent of Japanese women in their 20s and 30s have been groped on Tokyo trains”. I think if almost 64% of women in their 20s or 30s were killed or raped, we wouldn’t call it a “very small” murder problem, or a “very small” rape problem.
April 15, 2010 at 6:24 PM
Greg Z: “Metro rules! Cars can suck it! :)
Also, you tagged me, but I don’t recognize any of the quotes as being mine. Unless…. unless you were just trying to pick on me?!?!”
April 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM
hard to say, hehe. But if cars suck so much, try throwing your party saturday without them, and see how many people can make it…
April 15, 2010 at 6:45 PM
Put it this way: Take away cars, and the attendance (people multiplied by minutes) of your party would go down. Guaranteed.
April 15, 2010 at 6:46 PM
Parthena:
I was amused to see that at least three of those quotes you used were said by me…most likely in the last 6 months. :)
FYI, Metro closes at midnight on worknights and is usually open until around 3 AM on the weekends (but some trains arrive closer to 2:45)- I don’t think this changes whether it’s a station in DC or VA.
I despise it but that’s mainly because I’ve had to use it for the last 5 years. I’ve only had one job in my adult life where I didn’t have a 45+ minute commute each way. Driving is a possibility but only if I want to pay $14 a day to park, which ends up being about $280 per month. My current job pays for 100% of my metro fare so it makes more financial sense to take metro (even though every cell in my body rebels against the idea of it taking 1 hour to go 8 miles).
April 16, 2010 at 8:40 AM
Ian:
After taking a random sampling of comments about the pains of car ownership and repair from your Twitter feed, Clint, I have no choice but to come to the conclusion that cars suck. There are FAR more negative comments and things that have gone wrong than positive ones.
OK, I didn’t take a sampling, I’m just going on what I’ve read in recent months, the point is of *course* most of the comments are negative, who posts to say that they had an efficient, uneventful commute?
Anyway, whoever said back there that it’s more convenient for those that live in the city is certainly right. I live in the city, and like public transport just fine, though I’m no apologist. It’s got plenty of room for improvement. And if I lived in the ‘burbs and had to ride every day, I’d probably hate it too. But I’d also hate living in the ‘burbs, so they’re both sort of a “to each his own” thing anyway. … See More
I lived for quite a few years with no car at all, and managed to get out of town regularly, via a combination of Zipcar and rentals. And my annual cost was still far below the cost of ownership, maintenance, and insurance. Any “loss of freedom” was negligible. By the time I got rid of the car, I wasn’t using it much anyway; 90% of my social circle was in a 2 mile radius, and the few outliers were still easily reachable on metro or bike.
Oh, and while I only take the bus very occasionally, for the record, my bus line at rush hour is full of attractive young women (& men). Yes, buses are a primary conveyance for the working classes, but downtown-bound lines from northwest DC at the start and end of the workday are overwhelmingly 20-30something white collar types.
April 16, 2010 at 8:40 AM
@Ian: It’s true, no news as good news. I’m just propagandizing my personal stance, y’know. :)
However, I also have tweeted and posted about how I’ve essentially been paid to deal with these problems.
Of course you get car problems when your car is totaled. But despite having replaced my blinker, headlight, fender, tie rod, and rear left tire, I’m still $2,000 ahead in the insurance money! I’ve essentially driven for free for 2 years now…. See More
And only in the 11 years we’ve lived here, between Carolyn & me, only 4 years have either of us worked somewhere metro accessible.
We don’t have to pick our friends and jobs out of a small radius. And if I want to go somewhere after midnight, I can…
And then there’s the money we save getting stuff at yard sales.
My car cost $10,000 in 1997… My price point for car purchase + gas + insurance + repairs is [very approx] about 40 cents a mile, not counting my $3000 insurance payout. I just don’t see how a rental or taxi is going to beat that — but even if it doesn’t, one of my points was that I’m quite willing to pay more for the additional freedom of truly being able to go wherever I want, whenever I want.
As for buses: I’ve certainly noticed people in the city are better looking in general. (And when I rode the bus in college, they were VERY good looking, cause they were all college girls.) But that is definitely not the case at any stop I see in Virginia…
April 16, 2010 at 8:46 AM
Chris Y: “I see many people are feeding the troll. :)”
April 16, 2010 at 8:46 AM
@Chris: Yes, it’s been amusing. Especially because I predicted it in my “article”.
I do enjoy walking no more than 10 feet to a pre-heated car in the winter, with blasting music, water I’m allowed to actually drink without getting a ticket (I get thirstly a lot more than msot people), and being able to, if I want, drive into the boonies at 4AM after deciding to do so at 3:59AM…
April 16, 2010 at 10:04 AM
Pretty friend of Clint’s:
“Thanks man, I thought I had forgotten about the violation incident… ;D That dude was totally rubbing his junk against my ass that time. What I really hate about the metro–> one accident backs up the flow of the rail for a year and the red line is absolutely cursed.”
April 16, 2010 at 11:36 AM
“Anyway, whoever said back there that it’s more convenient for those that live in the city is certainly right.”
Not only that, but I actually did primary research some years ago that showed this is literally the case. You CAN use public transport in the suburbs, but it takes longer, costs more and is generally less effective than driving. In dense cities it’s the other way ’round, due to traffic and the price of parking.
Anyway, I picked out at least two quotes from me in there. Good to know my now-dead blog is still referenced sometimes :)
April 16, 2010 at 4:24 PM
This may or may not apply to DC, since we have a pretty crappy public transport system, but some other cities have pretty good ones.
I once had to spend over 2 weeks in San Francisco. I had a rental car available to me paid by my office. The only time the car ever left the parking garage was for the daily commute to Oakland and back.
Whenever I had to get around in the city(which was daily, cause damn right I was going to get some sightseeing done while there), the car stayed parked at the hotel. Due to the parking situation, it was just plain cheaper and quicker to get anywhere using nothing but bus and my 2 feet.
And don’t even get me started about Japan. You can pretty much get anywhere in the country faster and more conveniently using public transport.
That being said, yeah, WMATA pretty much sucks. Just about every rail/bus system I’ve seen in the country is better than WMATA. And I’ve seen a lot.
April 16, 2010 at 4:29 PM
Fair enough. My own writings are [i hope obviously] about my own experiences, not comprehensive statements about the world at large.
Though I’d argue this post was mostly written by others :)
April 16, 2010 at 4:31 PM
I nominate this as my best caption from this “article”:
“If only you’d driven, you wouldn’t be all explody now, would you?”
Using 911 for humor shows that I have no boundaries for respect when making jokes! Huzzah!
April 19, 2010 at 5:25 PM
i don’t take public transit unless i really have to. i’m glad you’re also not a fan of public transit. whenever i see a hot girl waiting for the bus, i wonder how many DUI’s she’s had. the same sort of thing happens when i see a hot girl working at mcdonalds (rarely), i just think to myself that she probably fucked up pretty bad.
my friend got a DUI and he’s been taking the bus from his home near 7 corners to his office on sunrise valley drive in reston. it takes forever, but he really has no choice. now he’s gotta go to court and get a restricted license because his bus route is being eliminated. without a car, he’ll have no way to get to work. imagine that, he has a NEED for a car. tree hugging hippies must love that shit.
May 6, 2010 at 8:37 AM
[…] ) Gone to the top of Seattle Space Needle ( ) Been on a cruise (x) Traveled by train – if the subway counts, then yes (x) Traveled by motorcycle ( ) Been horse back riding ( ) Ridden on a San […]
August 12, 2010 at 10:24 PM
The decision to go live with or without a car involves trade-offs. In either case, you must accept the good with the bad.
The good: if you mostly take mass transit (supplemented with Zip Car for relatively infrequent car-essential trips) you can save a lot of money each month. More than you realize. The average person spends over $600/month maintaining a car, when all costs (esp. depreciation) are included (AAA, 2009). I spend approximately $100 a month on Metro (less, really, since my job lets me buy Metro fare in pre-tax dollars), use ZipCar 5-6 times a year, rarely take cabs, and bike quite a bit (mostly commuting, as well as trips around town). Do the math. What could you do with an extra $400-500 a month?
*More good: When you use mass transit, you will almost certainly get more exercise. I’ve already mentioned biking as a reasonable option for many people, especially over the short trips (<2 miles) for which the vast majority of people in this fat, sedentary country use their cars. (Granted, many people are elderly, infirm or otherwise physically challenged, so this obviously doesn't apply to everyone.) Imagine what we could do about our national obesity problem if more people started even taking most of their short trips on bikes, or on foot.
More good: If you're using public transit, you're doing something about the traffic congestion nightmare instead of just whining about it. Rahter than ridicule people who are "too poor" to run their own cars, you should thank those of us (still too few, by all accounts) who take unnecessary cars off the road daily. Imagine what your commute would be like if we all had your attitude.
More good: The most you can do safely in a car is listen to music, or the radio, or a book on CD, or chat on the phone. (And from my experience as a cyclist, the latter two are too much for most people). But the time (granted, the extra time) you spend in public transit can be largely productive, with a little forethought. On buses and trains, I read, surf the Web, catch up on work, do my taxes, or take a nap. Try doing any of that in a car.
Now the bad. And as you ably point out, there's a lot of it. You lose some freedom. You have to run on someone else's schedule. You don't always (or even often) take the most direct route (though trains can be very efficient here). People can be annoying. No one has mastered playing an Ipod at a discreet volume. People talk too loud on their cell phones. Hygiene is sometimes an issue. There's crime. Metro is terribly mismanaged, and their service doesn't improve. I get it.
But this is what it means to take part in a trade-off. You think that driving your car everywhere involves no trade-offs of its own, that it's the best of all worlds, but you're wrong. There are lots of hassles and inconveniences what come with maintaining a car that I never have to deal with. Myriad headaches and expenses I never see. Opportunities for fresh air and exercise I rarely miss. You'd probably say the freedom, convenience and safety of cars far outweighs all that, but honestly, it doesn't for all people. It certainly doesn't for me. Everyone needs to consider their own circumstances, to run their own numbers, to determine their own comfort zones, and see what works for them. But most people don't think too long or hard about transportation–their second biggest expense after housing-and hastily assume they could never live without a car. But some, perhaps many, could. Especially people in cities. Or, could live with just one. Imagine the environmental, health and financial benefits we could reap as a nation if more people considered this.
RD
August 13, 2010 at 9:43 AM
$600/mo a car in maintenance? Bullshit man. Total bullshit. That’s $7,200 a year. That’s almost enough to buy a car every year! My car was $10K in 1997 and still runs fine. I do NO preventative maintenance, in fact I have only changed oil about 10-15 times ever.
You write a compelling argument, but I tend to gloss it over when your first number is bullshit. I spend less than $600 maintenance every YEAR on a my car. (Though I spent more this year – $1000 – what with having been totalled. But I was paid out $3000 by my insurance, so guess what? I’m still $2,000 PROFIT for driving.)
I paid it off in the 1990s. My insurance was never more than $60 a month. $600? Please.
You want to make an argument with numbers, use good numbers and you’ll make a better point.
BTW, The “average” person makes idiotic decisions anyway. I agree with you there – most people don’t consider things properly.
I don’t like reading, and I don’t have a cell phone or portable mp3 player. My favorite activity is to listen to music. Loudly. Not fake headphone music, real subwoofers with bass that you can feel vibrate your whole body, just like real live music does. Despite what anyone claims, headphones cannot do that.
So yea, everyone has their own feelings on the matter. Including me. Which is why I post things on MY blog ;)
Also, I highly doubt the environment is going to be saved by people getting on mass transport. They’d like to think that, but no. All their food and supplies still comes in on trucks; all their streets are still full of vehicles regardless.
New technology (both in more efficient transportation technology, energy sources, etc) is the only thing that is going to save our environment. The solution is science, not sacrifice. “What we need more of is science!”
Come up with the right energy source, and the right automated safety measures in cars, and cars could end up beating public transportation. Imagine a flying car that makes no pollution and takes you directly from point A to point B with a 0% fatality rate. Someday it will happen. Not in our lifetimes, though***.
[***never say never]
August 16, 2010 at 12:46 PM
And I’m guessing your car(s) cost you $0 in taxes? That’s part of the “maintenence” cost.
His $600/month thing isn’t “total bullshit”, it’s a fact straight out of AAA’s stats! You took the overall cost of car ownership and compared it piece-by-piece to a FEW factors of car ownership in your own case, so of course your numbers are going to be lower than the total cost of ownership.
August 16, 2010 at 12:47 PM
My property tax is $18/yr, and the inspection is what, $15? They no longer have county stickers. You also seem to have missed my comment where I replied to his link. So you just bumped me up $2.75/month. However, the original comment said maintenance cost. Taxes aren’t maintenance. Original poster should have used clearer semantics.
August 13, 2010 at 2:56 PM
You wrote:
$600/mo a car in maintenance? Bullshit man. Total bullshit. That’s $7,200 a year. That’s almost enough to buy a car every year! My car was $10K in 1997 and still runs fine. I do NO preventative maintenance, in fact I have only changed oil about 10-15 times ever.
You write a compelling argument, but I tend to gloss it over when your first number is bullshit. I spend less than $600 maintenance every YEAR on a my car. (Though I spent more this year – $1000 – what with having been totalled. But I was paid out $3000 by my insurance, so guess what? I’m still $2,000 PROFIT for driving.)
I paid it off in the 1990s. My insurance was never more than $60 a month. $600? Please.
Hi, Clint.
Thanks for acknowledging my argument is compelling. Now I’ll back up my numbers.
If you care to, review these figures (link below) from AAA. Keep in mind this is AAA, not the Sierra Club. Unlike myself, they have no anti-car axe to grind. They’ve been keeping these numbers and putting out these reports forever.
(You can also go to Edmunds.com or Google True Cost to Own to check average costs for specific years, makes, models.)
Also, keep in mind that your car situation is very different from the average American. You’ve wisely paid off your ride, are not rushing out to buy the latest shiny toy every five years, have an exceedingly low insurance cost and do no preventive maintenance. (And if you’re really smart, when this car dies, you’ll buy used and not finance).
Here’s the link:
http://www.aaaexchange.com/Assets/Files/200948913570.DrivingCosts2009.pdf
Clint, I’m not making the numbers up. And your response (utter disbelief, peppered with profanity) is the same one I get whenever I toss out that $600/month stat. No one has a great sense of what their cars really cost.
So, yes, I do believe your car may run you $100 or $200 a month or less–in which case driving clearly makes sense for you over mass transit–but you’re far from “average.”
I’ll respond to the rest of your points later. Have a great day.
RD
August 13, 2010 at 3:47 PM
Wow — I’m never happy to eat my own words:/ [UPDATE: I retract stating that I just ate my words. Closer inspection reveals it’s still bullshit.]In that case, I have to wonder what the average american is doing wrong! $600 is more than a car payment!
And yea, I paid mine off quick. I was living with my parents, making a very good first-job-out-of-college age, and was making double and triple payments for a year or two until it was paid off. And it was used when I bought it. I’ll quite possibly never buy a new car. . .
August 16, 2010 at 12:54 PM
By the way, RD, you should have used clearer semantics.
Taxes aren’t maintenance.
Insurance isn’t maintenance.
Financing isn’t maintenance.
Now that I’ve looked at the PDF more closely, I challenge you to tell me what page number it says that car maintenance is $600 a year.
I’m looking at the table on page 4 on the PDF. It says average maintenance is 4.56 cents per mile. If you multiply that by 10,000 miles per year, that comes out to $456. Divide by 12, that’s $38 a month.
$38? $600? Big difference buddy (15.7X the difference). I retract my retraction. Your original maintenance number is, indeed, bullshit.
August 13, 2010 at 7:23 PM
You wrote:
In that case, I have to wonder what the average american is doing wrong! $600 is more than a car payment!
You’re very right. A lot more.
A frugal guru of mine says the best way to buy cars is to take the money you estimate you’ll blow on a car loan each month and put it away in an interest-bearing “car fund” for five years or so. Then buy used with whatever you’ve set aside and don’t give the bank a dime. Once you’ve bought the car, repeat process. Not everyone’s got the financial wherewithal for it, but if you’re so blessed, it may keep you from getting totally molested in the car market.
As for your other point, I think it’s pretty clear the average American has bought into years and years and millions and millions of buckers worth of new car advertising.
Zoom Zoom. :)
RD
August 13, 2010 at 7:27 PM
Figures. I think the only time I’ve seen a commercial in the past few years is if I’m on vacation. Even when I had cable, I’d record everything on VHS and FF through commercials with the great VHS technology known as CommercialAdvance(tm). Or I’d mute the stereo :)
August 13, 2010 at 7:25 PM
“Buckers?” Ack. Bucks.
August 13, 2010 at 7:27 PM
Those motherbuckers!! :D
August 16, 2010 at 2:34 PM
I wrote:
The average person spends over $600/month maintaining a car, when all costs (esp. depreciation) are included (AAA, 2009).
Clint,
You’re right. My semantics were bad. I shouldn’t have used the term “maintaining” at all.
I should have said, “owning.”
But this is a VERY minor point, and the numbers aren’t bogus. My point was, and still is, that the AVERAGE person (not necessarily yourself) spends $600 or more a month OWNING a car. That includes all conceivable, direct (meaning, paid by you) costs of car ownership: financing, depreciation (a big one), insurance, parking, moving violations, gas, MVA fees, the little pine-scented thing that hangs from your mirror, etc.
It’s all in the AAA figures and at Edmunds.com.
And isn’t the total figure what really matters anyway, as opposed to simply “maintenance?” Maintenance is just one piece of the total car cost, and the TOTAL is what one should consider when deciding to live with or without a car(s).
RD
August 19, 2010 at 7:53 AM
Clint,
To illustrate, I’ll share my own car-owning experience.
In 2002, I bought a 1999 Saturn SL1 and drove it for several years. At the end of 52 months, I realized I had really good data on the costs of driving since I use my debit card, not cash, for pretty much everything. So I tallied all my costs and breaking them down by type (gas vs. maintenance, etc) as well as how much was the result of poor driving (at the time, I was somewhat “velocity-challenged”) versus standard costs. Keep in mind that I bought the car used for $7800, in cash, so financing and depreciation were not a factor, and less a factor, respectively, than the usual case.
To sum up, I found that I had spent at least $428 a month, on average, on standard driving costs, and $527 a month, on average, when my careless driving behavior was factored in. I never would have guessed I spent that much until I ran the numbers.
RD
August 19, 2010 at 8:04 AM
4.3 yrs isn’t a good sample size. If people get new cars [to them] every 4.3 yrs, of course their costs are going to be high. Lemme know what your 10-yr numbers are when you get there.
Of course, even if cars DID cost more, that’s still worth it to me for the reasons outlined in the original article. A limo costs more than a taxi, a private jet costs more than flying coach, but if I had the money, I’d rather ride in those. You may notice the original post is not very much about money.
August 19, 2010 at 10:07 AM
You wrote:
4.3 yrs isn’t a good sample size. If people get new cars every 4.3 yrs, of course their costs are going to be high. Lemme know what your 10-yr numbers are when you get there.
Clint,
I don’t understand why four years isn’t a good sample size. It certainly helps you see trends. In fact, one would think a car’s costs would be LOWEST when it’s reasonably new (i.e., the first four years). The car had approx. 29K miles when I bought it.
Also, I didn’t buy a new (or new used) car after the four years were up, so that didn’t affect my costs. Instead, after I ran these numbers, and since I was already environmentally conscious, I started using my car a lot less, maybe once a week, in favor of mass transit. I ended up giving the car to someone in my church who was in dire financial need and up to his eyeballs in (two) car payments. And in my case, there’ll be no 10-year mark to judge by.
Yeah, I’m only focusing on cost because you disputed the numbers, published by an organization pre-eminently qualified to gauge them.
My point is to demonstrate that the numbers are real and true, if anyone cares to track them. And while you’re willing to own a car at ANY cost, some people out there who are struggling, and who, for example, have an easy commute with good access to public transit, might actually benefit from making the trade-off.
RD
August 19, 2010 at 10:11 AM
Your costs were only “lower” because you paid in cash. So that $7000 you spent is magically not counted in monthly costs. That’s just finagling numbers. In fact, your car cost you $7000 in your first year, at least. My car in the past year has actually turned a profit thanks to insurance money.
You’re really failing to make a valid point here, you’re using anecdotal evidence, semantic tricks [calling all costs maintenance when they aren’t], and cooking your books [saying the first years of a car are the cheapest while simultaneously stating yours cost you over $400/mo.]
You actually had me believing you at first, but the more you talk, the more it has reaffirmed that my own viewpoint is the correct one for me — and for others who choose to follow through and not make easy decisions based on convenience [i.e. “my car broke down twice this year, i’ll just buy another one”].
Citing “average” numbers isn’t convincing either, as the average person does things stupidly.
You also have an environmental agenda, which explains why you are fighting so hard for a lost cause.
It is impossible to live where I live without a car. My wife’s 15 minute commute would be 1.5 hrs by bus; she’s looked it up. Every job I’ve ever had would be impossible to get to without a car, or without sitting in the cold waiting for a bus. I don’t even sit in the cold in my car – I have remote start. I pre-warm my car so it’s hot by the time I get in. Can’t stand the cold. Would gladly pay $500 extra every winter to NOT stand in the cold waiting for a bus.
My original post stands. I suggest giving up your lost cause of trying to convince me of anything. Cost savings of public transport is irrelevant to someone who needs a car all the time. I’d be paying those car costs either way, and paying public transport costs on top of that.
August 19, 2010 at 10:45 AM
Clint,
Wow. I must be really bad at communicating my thoughts. I’m sorry. Somehow, everything you’ve just written is a misunderstanding of what I wrote and what I’m trying to say.
First and foremost, I’m not trying to convince you to give up driving. At all. Just saying that for some, especially those in cities (and I’m a suburbanite) it might be an option.
Now, to your response:
*”Your costs were only “lower” because you paid in cash. So that $7000 you spent is magically not counted in monthly costs. That’s just finagling numbers. In fact, your car cost you $7000 in your first year, at least. My car in the past year has actually turned a profit thanks to insurance money.”
My point was not that my costs were lower. Yes, they were lower than the average, but my point was that my costs were still a lot HIGHER than one would expect considering I paid cash and didn’t finance. You’re actually making my point for me.
I MOST DEFINITELY DID include the original $7800 in my overall costs. To not do so would have been extremely poor accounting and dishonest.
*”You’re really failing to make a valid point here, you’re using anecdotal evidence, semantic tricks [calling all costs maintenance when they aren’t], and cooking your books [saying the first years of a car are the cheapest while simultaneously stating yours cost you over $400/mo.]”
I’m actually using the best evidence available: data released by AAA, which has been tracking this data for the nation since 1950!
I included my own “anecdotal” evidence as a way of showing that a) even my own un-financed, used car was pricier than expected and b) I would never have known this without tracking it.
The whole “maintenance” misunderstanding doesn’t disprove my point; it actually proves it. I made the mistake of using the word “maintain” instead of “own” and you interpreted this to mean I’m playing semantic tricks. But you’re just proving my point for me by highlighting the fact that maintenance is just one very pretty small part of the total cost of car ownership (the biggest ones being depreciation and financing, the latter when applicable).
When I said the cheapest years are the earliest years, I was just saying that if anything, my costs should be expected to go UP if I carried on this tracking for ten years. My reasoning is, as a car gets older, costs may go up. I’m not saying it with certainty, but just as a way of asking you why I need to track this for TEN YEARS to demonstrate cost.
Last point: Go on driving your car. I’m not trying to stop you. But I am trying to communicate that your case IS NOT the norm, and that lots of people out there are going to continue making the “stupid” (your word) financial decisions they make regarding cars unless they’re encouraged to run some numbers for themselves and consider the pro’s and con’s of alternatives to cars.
August 19, 2010 at 11:00 AM
9 in 10 americans own a car, so no, it is not “the norm” that people believe public transport is better. If they did, they wouldn’t have cars, would they? Car ownership proves that 90% of people at least BELIEVE that owning a car is better than relying solely on public transport.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0705/S00103.htm
And, I’m pretty goddamn sure you’re wrong about the 10 yr thing.
Car costs go down. Insurance gets cheaper (Mine’s $400 a YEAR now), taxes get cheaper (my property tax is $20/yr). Repairs are the only thing that goes up, but they are more than offset by not having car payments. On a bad year, I sink $1000 into maintenance. That’s 4 months of car payments. I spent triple that per year on car payments alone, during the first few years of owning it.
The best time is right after your car is paid off, but before it gets too old. For me, that was 2000-2005. It might be more expensive than that now, but it’s still cheaper than what I’d be paying if I’d purchased another car since then. BY FAR.
Frankly, you’re clamming something you have no personal experience with OR numbers to back it up. I have no numbers to back it up, but I do have the personal experiences of me and my wife, who both bought our cars in the 1990s. We have our share of repairs and car problems, but never do these repairs cost more than 4 months of our car payments.
Meanwhile, everyone else in my family who has bought at least 2 cars since we got ours is still making monthly payments. I drive for less each month than they do. They are the “average” case you cite, and they are wrong and stupid.
And I reserve the right to call all of America stupid if I want.
You’ve only served to make the same points that have been made to me over and over.
AAA citing stats from 1950 doesn’t mean much to someone who’s willing to go the extra mile [no pun intended] to save some money. Most Americans are consumerist idiots who buy way more than they need. All those stats show to me is that people buy cars too often, as the cost of the car itself is the biggest chunk of total ownership. (That, and gas.)
Don’t worry — next car I own, I plan to keep detailed stats on my total cost.
Anyway, your point is received. You don’t need to keep making it. It doesn’t apply to me, and I think it’s stupid. It reduces situations to quantifiable factors, when there are a ton of qualifiable factors too. If you want to walk outside on the ice in the winter, sit with the riff-raff on a cold subway while they cough their germs on you — all to save a few bucks — knock yourself out.
August 19, 2010 at 11:15 AM
Okay, Clint. I wish you well.
September 15, 2010 at 4:22 PM
[…] entered into this weird subway station that had a Q-bert-esque set of platforms you could jump on, and jumped around a lot, […]
November 11, 2010 at 4:21 PM
[…] kinda sucked, because sometimes you had to take your kayak out of the water, go out from the subway and onto the street, walk a block, then go down into a different subway to […]
November 16, 2012 at 8:47 AM
What I hate about public transit are all the freaks, geeks, dinks, jerks, weirdos and hippies who are individually so annoying in so many ways. I also hate those who have some coughing, sneezing, spewing monkey disease yet get on the bus anyway and treat ALL of us to their sickly monkey ailment.